Interview with an Iranian Lesbian Couple

By Arsham Parsi

Translated by Shadi

Please introduce yourself.

I am Shaghayegh, I’m 33 years old, and this is my girlfriend Nazanin who is 32. We have recently fled Iran. We are lesbians and have been living together for some years.

How do you define a lesbian?

Shaghayegh: A lesbian is a woman who is sexually and emotionally drawn to other women, only has relationships with women and is never attracted to men.

Nazanin: A lesbian in Iran has a different reality. Many are forced to live with a lie, or forced to marry. When they give in to this marriage, they put themselves in a position where they will be in a way violated, and by lying to themselves, their husband and even their children, they commit the greatest sin.

Shaghayegh: Lesbians do not have an existence in Iran because they are all forced to be bisexual in Iranian society. They are pressured, because of society or family, to marry at least once or be with a man or be raped by a man. They don’t have a right to choose a life without a man.

You are the first lesbians whom I have personally spoken with. Gay men do not personally know of any lesbians. Heterosexuals also don’t know lesbians. Perhaps even some lesbians don’t know of other lesbians. Why are lesbians no where to be seen?

Shaghayegh: Fear. Fear of coming out. Fear of what others will think of them once they know. Fear that they do not have a place in our society. We don’t even accept ourselves, how can we expect heterosexuals to accept us? We fear our families. Even the two of us who have had no pretensions and have stood by everything and come this far, until only a few years ago we despised the word ‘lesbian’. Even back when I had a girlfriend, was having sex, and had no man in my life, I ran away from the label ‘lesbian’ because I was unaware of its true meaning.  I only began to come to terms with myself when I started to read articles about what a lesbian is and what the term means. Unlike what is generally believed in our society, a lesbian is not someone who acts in porno films. The term is used for someone who only has feelings for other women. And this feeling can be very intense; I only need to believe in myself to know that.

Nazanin: Due to the beliefs Iranian families have and their ancient culture and the tradition that exists in our society, the most important of which is marriage and the limited amount of time a girl has in her father’s house. And the accidental comments lesbians may overhear in their childhood, which goes back to what social class their family comes from and what kind of a culture they have been raised in. Although, that is not a general rule and some people who come from supposedly cultured circles also see homosexuality as a horrifying thing. You must be very strong to wash away from your mind what you have grown up hearing since childhood. Some people can fight their families from the very beginning. Some girls may be very boyish. Others may be the kind of people who try to fool themselves and their families. Since internet came to Iran, it’s been able to help distribute information on this issue (at least before the filtering system was established). When we have a source of information that people can read and study, even if they do so in their own isolation, it becomes much easier for them to come to terms with this issue, or at least gain a little familiarity with it. For example, if we pay attention to satellite television, we can witness the influence of it on all of society today. Even children in primary school are very different from those ten or fifteen years ago. The idea of having girlfriends or boyfriends is already established; a little boy draws a heart for a little girl; mothers buy gifts so that their children will play together and in other words become ‘friends’. These things were seen as inappropriate years ago, not only for children but also for adults.

Shaghayegh: It is said our culture does not accept the idea of having girlfriends or boyfriends, but there are girls in Iran for whom this isn’t an issue because they remain unattached. There are many who pass the age of puberty and still have no boyfriends, and their whole family says “wow, this girl is so chaste”, measuring her chastity by her not having a boyfriend. They do not think that perhaps she is not attracted to the opposite sex. Someone who doesn’t have a boyfriend is not necessarily religious or pious. She may be hiding her sexual orientation under the guise of piety, saying “yes it is not right for me to have relations with boys” so she can more easily establish close relationships with girls. We have many such people in Iran and our culture has nurtured this kind of thing. I can say that the percentage of bisexuals, gays, and lesbians in Iran is exceptionally high and unfortunately none dare to speak out about it, so they end up becoming involved in relationships which are harmful to them and to others around them. For example some girls get married and have a relationship with a woman on the side or their husband has a relationship with a man; this infidelity destroys their family and destroys their children. These incidences are not unusual.

Nazanin: This issue goes back to our closed culture, a place where extramarital relationships between men and women is forbidden. Well, in some cases sexual attraction is expressed in different ways. Maybe a girl cannot begin a relationship with a boy, so she does so with her best girlfriend. We cannot say this girl is hundred percent a lesbian, this may have merely been a sexual experiment. As Shaghayegh says, same-sex attraction exists in all people, some people encourage it and some don’t. This is why these incidences occur a lot in Iran. They [the parents] can close the door and say “well, since you’re with your girlfriend then everything is fine, go ahead and study together”. So it becomes possible for them to be alone together and have sexual relations.

You mean that social situations sometimes force one to engage in same-sex sexual relations, while other times one is personally attracted to someone of the same sex (irrespective of one’s social situation).

 Nazanin: Exactly, and unfortunately in Iran this is very common-place.

Shaghayegh: Most people have had this kind of experience at least once, and it doesn’t necessarily define their sexual orientation. The person who continues in this vein and emotionally prefers this path is called homosexual or bisexual. But a person does not become homosexual based on one same-sex encounter. I believe the homosexuality goes back to genetic factors and exists in a person from childhood; for example, in school [a girl] falls in love with [another] girl in her class. There are many reasons explaining why this preference is not instilled by society. People who have just had one experience may forget about it and never engage in similar acts again – this is also very common [in Iran].

Let’s back up a little. I am comparing lesbians with gay men. The first factor that forces gay men to think about themselves and understand they are different is how society perceives them Every homosexual man I have spoken to has had others call him ‘feminine’ in reference to his gender identity. This name-calling provoked them to begin questioning themselves. I have not heard a similar name used in reference with lesbians.

Nazanin: No, it isn’t used. People make comments like “this girl is manly” which doesn’t necessarily have alienating consequences because in Iranian society people will befriend and support such a woman, interpreting her masculinity as being cool and hip, having an edge, an attitude, a style.

Shaghayegh: Lesbian girls are able to come to terms with these names and these perceptions until a certain age. Its effect on them is visible – they cut their hair short and wear boyish clothes. Even lesbians who look very feminine tend to dress differently than other girls since childhood and it causes people within their family circle to talk and say “this girl is like a boy”. If she reaches puberty [and still maintains this outer appearance], it is said this woman has strength of character, she’s a strong woman; they still don’t understand her. Two things happen at this point – either she conforms to the norm in society or, like others who are ‘butch’, maintains her masculinity by looking completely like a man. She is not transsexual to want to have a sex-change operation; she is a woman who has the style and look of a man and is homosexual. And usually in society they call such a woman ‘lion-woman’ [butch] - she can be a match for a hundred men - but they don’t consider the masculine quality in her could be a sign of her sexual orientation. Many women don’t understand this quality within them and suppress it. They are forced to marry and the men who marry them are usually gay men who haven’t gotten to know themselves, so they choose these kinds of women and begin a life with them. The woman sees her man as a woman, and the man sees his woman as a man and that’s how they live together. If their life progresses peacefully, a few years later when the woman is no longer scared of her family, her husband or her children, she reveals her lesbianism, divorces the man, and tries to live an independent life. This is one of the reasons why divorce statistics in our society have risen exponentially. The women who are unable to get divorced are not the kind of women who can be financially self-reliant and stand on their own two feet. This woman is a passive bisexual or homosexual who cannot sustain herself in society and as a result is forced to submit to her husband and remain under his control and suffer thousands of violations to her body. We have seen many such people, who after the age of forty or fifty got tired, finally left their life of captivity and now live alone.

Lesbians are homosexual women. I believe society and the patriarchal order gives them two negative labels. One, that they are women, and two, that they are homosexual. Many women and women’s rights defenders are not necessarily defenders of lesbian rights and are, in fact, sometimes intense opponents of it. What are your views on this?

Shaghayegh: I agree that we have two negative labels, one being women in a patriarchal and Islamic country that does not consider women human, and the other our lesbianism. Being a lesbian itself has two negative points. First, that sexual attraction to another woman is haram and blasphemy; if it is revealed, you are killed. Second, that in lesbianism there lies an inherent masculine tendency that does not submit to anyone and as a result is forced to fight, and that fighting causes further problems for a woman. In terms of feminist issues, I haven’t had any encounters. I myself am a lesbian and I oppose men completely; just like how men do not consider women as human, I in turn, as a lesbian woman, cannot consider men as human. I want to show that if a woman is not higher than a man, she is not lower either. I don’t know what feminists are talking about – they want to defend women’s rights, but they themselves violate these rights and abandon a woman because of her sexual orientation and private affairs.

You mean some of these people fight against sex-based discrimination, but they themselves discriminate against certain people because of their sexual orientation?

Shaghayegh: It is exactly like this. Sexual orientation is a completely personal and private matter. All people on earth have harboured these different sexual attractions at one time or another; even those who claim they are heterosexual have at one point in time, unbeknown to others, had a sexual fantasy, and it may have even been acted upon and no one else knows because it is a private instinct that people have. But people tell each other “no you have no right to do this, it is bad”. This is something that has existed in every stage of human existence, everyone has experienced these things. And someone’s private life only concerns them. It’s as if I condemn you and say “why did you dream you had sexual relations with a man or why are you with a woman?” I have no right to condemn you for having a dream. The life of a homosexual in Iran is exactly this. Meaning, because you have a feeling that is yours and no one can take it away from you, you are condemned. In the same way that one cannot stop someone from dreaming, one cannot choose their sexual orientation, it is instinctual. By having this instinct you are condemned of a crime whose punishment is death and stoning and hanging; A crime whose minimum punishment is torture. The worst torture and punishment is the rape they commit before they decide whether you are to live or die. People look at us as if we are animals or as if we are sick. In their view we are dirty, and so they find it justifiable to rape us. The person who rapes a homosexual – that person is sick, that person is an animal. The person who sees a homosexual as an animal and decides to rape him/her in order to correct him/her, is sick. We see this a lot. Girls who are arrested by officials are raped or beaten, and are let go after if there is no evidence against them. I know someone personally who had this experience; since they had no evidence against her, they raped her, whipped her, beat her. She developed epilepsy and is now under the care of a doctor because of the many physical/emotional blows inflicted on her. She has now been kicked out of university as well. This is the most that happens to us. If she had been killed, maybe it would have been much better for her. Now, until the end of her life, she must have this experience before her eyes - what happened to her in prison, how her life was destroyed. For this reason she cannot go to university, and as a result of the physical ailments she has developed, isn’t able to have emotional relationships.

You spoke of incrimination. What is the punishment for lesbians in Iran? Some are of the opinion that the conditions for lesbians are better than those for gay men – the punishment for gay men is hanging; while lesbians are whipped the first three times they are arrested and only hanged on the fourth arrest.

Nazanin: The punishment for lesbians is most definitely execution. Before execution they are raped, which is a mental torment worse than death. In my view there is something that should be considered - that a gay man, whether physically or mentally, is after all a man. But a lesbian is a woman - physically and spiritually she is more delicate and emotional. Well, yes, many people say that in the case of women, the first three times they are whipped and only if it is repeated for a forth time they are hanged. But the reality is not so, because that very first time they arrest a lesbian, they take her and torture her almost to death and rape her. Execution is better than that. Unfortunately, if so far there has no been any talk of these executions and rapes it has been to save face for the families involved, because she is after all female, she is considered the daughter of a traditional family. Revealing the rape of a woman, even if she is heterosexual, is very difficult for a family – it is cause for disgrace. Usually they are not willing to issue a complaint and it is very rare for such a case to reach the court. In our society, even if justice is on the side of the girl and it is proven she was raped, from that day on people will look at her in way that is worse than rape. This is besides the fact that the law pertaining to the crime of rape requires four male witnesses to prove its legitimacy. As a result, the things that happen to a woman in Iran are rarely addressed.

I have spoken with many heterosexuals. Most of them say “we cannot accept gay men but have no problem with lesbians”.

Nazanin: Who said this! I think these heterosexuals who say “we accept lesbians” are mostly men. Because they take pleasure in the thought of two women being together and want to see them in the act, and even when we say we are lesbians in an effort to reject a man’s sexual advances, first he take pleasure in looking at us, and with those sick thoughts he has, he thinks to himself that now I can have sex with two women at the same time. It is because of their sick minds that they say “we accept lesbians”. Meanwhile it is enough to say to them “I am not willing for your hand to touch my body and I’m not at all willing to see you”, then that this man who is apparently a supporter becomes an enemy of this lesbian and may even reveal her, something which might cost her her life.

Some men, for whom women are only a means to satisfy male sexual desire, look at a relationship between two women in the same vein.

Nazanin: It is exactly so. Look at porno films made for a straight audience. It is impossible for it not to include a scene of two women having sex. It is impossible for a man not be shown with two women. Because they [straight men] take pleasure from it, it is only there to serve their carnal and sexual appetite - for them this is one kind of sexual relationship.

Shaghayegh: Many people who see these kinds of films say “the lesbians in this film ultimately satisfy themselves with sex toys. Then why don’t they go after men in the first place?” Well this is totally obvious. Because they are not lesbian, they’re only acting in the porno film and have a commercial purpose. Lesbian sex is not like what is shown in these films.

What is lesbian sex like, and how different is it from the way it is depicted in porno films?

Shaghayegh: Lesbian sex is emotional, the emotion of two women for each other. It is not sex, it is love making. It is possible that after fifty times of lovemaking a couple might like to, for the sake of fantasy, have hard sex, but still emotion plays a dominant role in the exchange. Commercial sex differs from real lesbian sex. We lesbians don’t accept those figures represented in porno films as lesbians. Because they are not lesbian. Lesbians are almost like feminists in that they do not see themselves in need of a man. Straight men think lesbians are willing to come to their bed with another woman, because a straight woman is not willing to do such a thing. But they don’t realize that lesbians are not willing to conduct any sexual relationships with any men in any form. The best answer I can give to those people who think lesbians and gays are the same people they watch in porno films is this: then according to this mentality, relationships between heterosexuals are the way they’re represented in such films, including sick sex involving many people or involving even animals. This point of view is not at all accurate. Porno films do not speak for everyone. Although I am not saying all lesbians are emotive [in their sex lives]; yes, there may be some lesbians who are sick. Like heterosexuals who call their [the lesbian] community vile. This percentage [of people] exists in any society.

Nazanin: If someone truly wants to become familiar with the truthful relationships lesbians have and gain information about their sexual lives can watch romantic lesbian films. There is also a TV show called The L Word which is about the lives of lesbians in Los Angeles, and no man exists on that show. The statistics show that most of the audience for the show is straight. Because they want to know what the life of a lesbian is like. All these films are on the internet and people can download them. When I was in Iran, that’s what I did.

Shaghayegh: Most people, as soon as they want to get to know a lesbian, ask “how do you have sex?” Well these people can watch these films. I personally don’t like to speak about my sexual relationships and have always had a problem with this question. Instead of porno films, you can watch films about lesbians, [that portray] those feelings that a lesbian woman has. [In terms of sex] gay men have male genitalia, so penetration occurs. But since lesbians do not have such a thing, penetration does not take place. Lesbian sex has no need for penetration with a dildo; two lesbians can satisfy each other without penetration. Ultimately I can say that while they are not lesbian, they cannot understand what this kind of relationship is like.

Well, since these films are made in light of the culture of their own countries, they may not give a correct representation to those in Iranian society. What is the difference between Iranian lesbians and those abroad?

Shaghayegh: There is no difference in terms of emotion, affection, love, or sex. The only difference we have is that our rights are taken away from us in Iran and we have no security of person vis-à-vis the government. We ourselves have experienced these circumstances. If someone were to find out we were lesbians, threats would be made, that if you are not with us or if you do not do this or that, we can very easily drag you to the execution pole, and we had no defence. But lesbians in Western countries, if they are not accepted by other people at least they are defended by the government and the law. For a while we lived in a city that was extremely religious and we were not safe, but now we feel this [Swiss] government supports us and if someone insults us we can seek safety with the police. I could not do this in Iran, because [if I did] I would be made the primary criminal and that person from whom I had sought safety would rape me.   

You identified rape as the biggest problem for lesbians. What is another problem that threatens the daily life of lesbians in Iran, a problem that forces them to choose to flee their country? Usually, information about the situation of gay men in Iran is within reach of human rights organizations, but the situation of lesbians is consistently obscure. What explanation can you offer about this?

Nazanin: Worst of all is the seclusion of being an Iranian lesbian; you are unconsciously     banished. In the beginning you can have contact with your friends to an extent but in a short amount of time, you lose your closest friends. It is difficult to reveal the truth to your friends, sometimes you are uncomfortable answering their questions, you don’t know what to say. For example this issue of not having a boyfriend - you bring up false names of guys but how long can you keep up these games? And after a while your friends obviously pull away from you and you are left alone. You’re forced to find people like yourself, and well, many problems come up in that community of lesbians and it reaches a point where you can’t even maintain connections with these lesbians and you become completely alone, to the point where you have no reason to leave your room.

Shaghayegh: I can mention two situations; one, when a girl knows herself as a lesbian; two, when she still hasn’t come to know herself. When she still hasn’t recognized herself, she tries to keep away from boys and only spend time with her girlfriends. Until a certain age she can continue in this way, but after a certain age they force her to get married and she has no way to escape. This is essentially a rape sentence. Maybe I can’t find the appropriate word for this cruelty, this coercion. Maybe rape is a very basic term but until that time that you have not been raped you cannot understand it. I think it is the worst torture. It is more difficult than death because death is one moment and after that you don’t feel anything. These lesbian women who get married are raped every night. Well, obviously, they are inflicted with many mental and spiritual problems. Spasms, physical diseases, feelings of hatred and revenge, etc all result from these rapes and they can affect a lesbian in Iran and constantly repeat themselves in cycles. The second situation is the lesbian who knows herself or is somehow discovered by her family. They might catch her red-handed, [in this case] they are disgraced, and she may even be beaten by her family. If she’s lucky enough that they don’t abandon her (which would force her to become a runaway and go to the parks and as a result be drawn into prostitution) they’ll force her to consult a doctor. They consult psychologists and psychiatrists. They have in the past taken the two of us to such doctors as well. They give us all kinds of pills. One of the pills the doctor gave Nazanin caused her to be hospitalized for two days because they had given her a pill used to anaesthise the mentally-ill. And these doctors don’t deal with you in an appropriate manner at all - they consider us dirty human beings. I remember my mother took me to a gynaecologist. She kicked my mother out of the room and said “your daughter is dirt, get out of my office”. When the recommendations of these doctors fail to change things, they decide the patient needs a sex-change procedure. They say “well, my dear, it’s okay. Now that this isn’t working, change your sex so you’ll become a man”. For an Iranian family having a boy is an honour and they can deal with women who become men, but they cannot bear men who become women, because that is hugely shameful. My father said to me, “I am so upset that you have this problem, it is as if my son was gay.” I said “What is the difference? I am the same way.” Well, sex changes are very easy in Iran. Fortunately the doctor I had gone to for hormone replacement therapy told me, “You are completely a woman”. With much resistance I was able to remain myself. I was abandoned, but I stood on my own feet. I had Nazanin. I had the power of a lonely, independent life which many do not have and are driven to prostitution. I did not have a sex-change, but many do.

Nazanin: Many families said “go ahead and commit whatever errors you wish to commit, but don’t do it before our eyes”. Some girls were forced to go out with a boy and then bid him farewell at the edge of the street. Well, all these problems exist and they are beyond explanation and remain like fire under the ashes. They call a gay man effeminate and curse at him in a thousand different ways. He is beaten, sentenced to hanging and torture, etc, but he is marked, identifiable. But a lesbian is not identifiable, she cannot scream, she cannot swear, and all this negative energy remains inside her.

Shaghayegh: Imagine for yourself someone within whom all this negative energy and problems and rape and pain remains, who does not have any support from their family and cannot get a job and work, cannot even rent a room in a hotel (because if she goes to a hotel they send her to places where they ask her “for what reason have you left your home? You must be a runaway. Tonight we will take care of you ourselves”…) so she is forced to sleep on the street. You can imagine for yourself what psychological/emotional situation this person must be in. Let’s assume what I just said has happened. If she is able to, with difficulty, find a place she can rent, she find an asshole (excuse my language) and present him either as her boyfriend or father or a relative so he can sign the permit in her name. This is only the beginning of her problems, because she is a single woman so in the workplace she is sexually-propositioned constantly and because she rejects these offers, she is eventually fired. If you are running a business yourself, it is easily destroyed by others, because you are a woman. When you don’t have a protector you don’t have a job, you don’t have [financial] support, what are you supposed to do? Well, some decide to endure the rape every night of every week so that at least they will have a protector. They tell themselves at home I am raped but when I leave the house I will be with my girlfriend.

Nazanin: Many cultured, wealthy families send their children abroad. They say “whatever misdeed you want to commit, do it there so we don’t see. Whenever you think you’d like to return and live here, you must marry so we won’t feel ashamed before aunts and uncles.” So even if they accept it, they say keep your distance, go so we don’t see you. We will accept, but leave. Leave so no one asks questions, and if they ask what is so and so doing, we’ll be able to say “he/she is abroad”. No one will be able to reach you and they won’t know, and we don’t lose face. Ultimately, as the saying goes, open-minded families abandon their children in a chic way.

Shaghayegh: We only want security of person. We are not interested in hurting anyone. I mean we do not have the ability to hurt others. No matter how much we say “we are butch, we are strong”, we are women and we don’t stand a chance against the physical power of a man. Yes, most lesbians go to self-defence and karate classes. In women’s karate and basketball teams you can see lesbians. At tournaments you should see how many there are, and no one interferes with them because everybody is the same. I mean, if you’re seeking lesbian hangouts you should go after sports teams. We don’t want to harm anyone; we only want the right to live.

What is the lesbian social network like in Iran?

Shaghayegh: A number are connected to each other through the internet, through networks where everyone knows each other, and unfortunately none are ready to see each other and many often end up losing face. They tell each other’s families, they complain about each other. For example they say “if you don’t go out with me or if you don’t do this I will tell everyone you’re a lesbian”. They know each other completely and are in touch. Others who are not into the internet are lesbians who have contacts with girlfriends from high school or childhood, etc. They are not informed about any of these things and may not even know they are lesbians, only that they are in love with a girl. Sometimes they are forced to marry. I know people who were together from middle school and were even kicked out of school a number of times; they were always together and would die for each other, but they were forced to get married. Both got married at the same time and the interesting thing is after they married, both couples went to the north of Iran together for their honeymoon and these two women were together and those two men were together. But no one knows and everyone says “wow, what successful couples”, but no one knows what relationships exist between them.   

Nazanin: Generally the social network between lesbians in Iran is not very interesting. Before there were certain sites through which lesbians would get to know each other. But since they have been shut down [filtered] the situation has become much worse. Most of them say “I am not a lesbian but I’m in love with this person until the end of my life”. They don’t even accept they are lesbians when they have sex with their girlfriend, they think lesbians are actors in porno films.

In Iran we have a gay community and a lesbian community and the two don’t have much contact with one another, but in fact they must be in contact because both groups are homosexuals. Why don’t these two communities connect?

Nazanin: Because gays do not understand lesbians and do not understand what kinds of relationships lesbians have and when they ask “how do you have sex together”, it is very offensive for lesbians so they quickly pull themselves away. Without anybody being aware of it, a wall is established between them.

Shaghayegh: Yet connections do exist; usually gays and lesbians are each in touch with at least a couple of people [from the other community]. But these are not like the extensive connections gays have amongst themselves. Some look for lesbians in chat rooms and well, unfortunately, this is not an appropriate place because most of them are not lesbians. Real lesbians who are in the room are no longer willing to establish connections with anyone, since they constantly come into contact with sick heterosexual people who are there to satisfy their own curiosity. Usually lesbians are not in chat rooms and only establish connections through emails and profiles.

What solution do you suggest, as a lesbian couple, for ending this separation and establishing unity?

Shaghayegh: Increase the knowledge gay men have about lesbian sex. They have a right to gain correct information, because they’re not aware and would like to know.   

Nazanin: Giving information, watching appropriate films, getting to know lesbians, all these can benefit the connection between the communities. Unfortunately the symbol of a lesbian woman is two naked women with big breasts. This is completely wrong. Gays must get to know lesbians better, and lesbians in turn must get to know gay men better so they can establish good relationships.

Then we must tell all gay men that asking questions about how you [lesbians] have sex is forbidden! Well, lastly, what would you like to add?

Nazanin: I would like to say a lesbian can pray and be the most pious person. God has created us and our differences are like [the difference between] white people and black people. We are homosexual while others are heterosexual.

Shaghayegh: A lesbian is not someone who sees everyone naked and wants to have sex with everyone around her; she lends more importance to love and emotion. Being a lesbian is not an abnormality, it is a sexual orientation. Do not avoid homosexuals. People don’t avoid vein people or peculiar animals, yet they avoid homosexuals and see them as unnatural. Society places these labels of good vs. bad, abnormal vs. natural vs. unnatural on individuals; who is this society? It is us - human beings.